Cultural Animals: Museum Leadership Lab
The “Culture Animals: Museum Leadership Lab” podcast is where the business of culture meets the art of leadership. Each episode explores how museum executives, development, marketing, and operational leaders are redefining what it means to lead in today's cultural landscape. From revenue and operations to digital transformation, audience engagement, and organizational culture, we unpack the strategies and stories driving sustainable impact in museums worldwide.
Whether you're a museum director, department head, or emerging leader, Culture Animals gives you a behind-the-scenes look at how great institutions evolve, one bold decision at a time.
Cultural Animals: Museum Leadership Lab
From Blueprint to Bloom: How A Landscape Architect Transformed A Botanical Garden
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What happens when a world-class designer trades global projects for a single desert garden and completely transforms it?
In this latest episode of Cultural Animals: Museum Leadership Lab, Jamie Maslyn Larson FASLA, CEO at Tohono Chul, shares her unexpected journey from leading landscape architecture projects across cities like New York and Copenhagen to reimagining a 49-acre botanical garden in Tucson, Arizona. With no prior nonprofit experience, Jamie took a bold, design-driven approach and rethought everything from visitor experience to community access.
The result? Attendance nearly doubled, new audiences poured in, and the garden became a vibrant cultural hub for locals.
From experimenting with summer night programs to breaking down internal silos and redefining what a public space can be, Jamie offers a candid look at leadership, creativity, and the power of taking risks.
If you are interested in museums, botanical gardens, public spaces, or leading change inside complex organizations, this conversation is a masterclass in turning vision into reality.
Listen to the latest episode to hear how one leader turned experimentation into impact and brought an entire community back into nature.
Thank you for joining us on this journey and being part of today's conversation. If this episode inspired you or made you curious to learn more, please like and subscribe to the Cultural Animals: Museum Leadership Lab podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Don't forget to follow Veevart on LinkedIn, Meta, and X for our latest stories, topics, and updates about future episodes. Thanks again for listening, and as always, stay curious. All the links are in the description below.
Good afternoon, everyone. Today we have uh Jamie Maslin Larson from The Holo True. We are super excited about this interview. Um, welcome, Jamie.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for making the time, Jamie. All right, Jamie. We um let's start with with a little bit about you. Um I know you came to the museum world from kind of landscape and architecture, and you were a big and you were a West 8 and Governor Island. So what made you say yes to 49-acre desert park in Tucson?
SPEAKER_03Um well, you know, I have I'm a I've been a landscape architect for over 25 years, and as you mentioned, in private practices. Um and my um primary goal with my career or my vision for my career was basically very simply to connect people to nature. Um and in particular uh in urban areas. So um I spent my career uh working on projects, public space projects, um, development projects, um large and small, everything from really small urban parks to um thousand-acre botanic garden projects. Um and still the mission through all the diversity of those projects was um to have more accessible connections um available to people of all over, all types, you know, in all sorts of economic conditions, in all sorts of spaces. And um I had a really great career in that. I um have always been um I guess driven, uh, driven to succeed in that, but also driven to meet my mission. And um and that comes from my heart, you know, that comes from a place of feeling a lot of benefits from nature myself personally, and also just seeing how people light up and how connections happen when people are outside.
SPEAKER_01And can I can I how did you how did you get into that in the first place? Like when you were when you were younger and you were like, okay, were you not teenager? Did you love parks? And I was like, how did this how did this came about?
SPEAKER_03Well, um, I grew up in a suburban planned community in Phoenix, Arizona. It was very designed. Um it was mirrored after a small town, so it had a little main street and it had nice bike systems and it had formal um boulevards and little streets. It's very, very much a planned community, done well. Um, however, in terms of the natural world, it was there was no desert there. You know, I lived in Phoenix, which is the Sonoran desert, and it was all imported plants. It was orange trees and palm trees and turf grass. Um, so anyway, my my childhood wasn't really about nature. It was, it was, it was understanding the social, like that that design could create, could foster social connections um and make it really easy for a kid to grow up in a town. But then when I went to college, it was in uh Flagstaff, Arizona, which was at 7,000 feet, it had pine trees. And I I guess I just got connected with a group of people that were really outdoorsy and took me on hikes. And northern Arizona is so beautiful. And I I would say I just had this like I just was opened up to a whole new whole nother world of how nature can make you feel great, which it is like completely like, yeah, because it's like, yeah, you can actually ski in Arizona. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And mountain bike and and I tried all these new things, and I was just like, I had no, I had no idea this exists. So I was really into design and I was really into the environment. And it just made sense that I would do landscape architecture. Um, and I never wanted to do anybody's homes. I never ever like I remember at my first job, I even told my bosses, like, I don't want to work on a college campus because I don't think that's really public space, you know. It's for privileged people, you know, who get to afford to go to college. So I was really arrogant. Um, but anyway, I just I believe in the health and healing and again the community property. So I didn't want to work like on preserving nature or restoring nature, you know, it was very much focused on people and nature.
SPEAKER_01Um, what was your first job?
SPEAKER_03My first job was um in Denver, Colorado, at a design practice that had um landscape architecture and urban design together. Um, so it was and Denver.
SPEAKER_01You just got into it.
SPEAKER_03I totally got into it. Denver was a great city, there was a lot happening. Um very walkable, bikeable, fun city. Um and I got to work with some really good projects right off the bat. That had the the the key with that job was that I got to work with some really um really exciting architects. I got to work with Moshe Softy. Um and you know, sort of cracked got me like understanding like the broader world of design and like how important it is to have a philosophy and a design approach and a you know um how important design is to the creation of space, you know, like having a identity, you know, having and so so Jamie, and how did the how did the Honour Schule came?
SPEAKER_01Like the opportunity, how did you present?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that it seems totally different, right?
SPEAKER_01So were you in Arizona when that happened?
SPEAKER_03I had a gr I had a great, great, great career in New York City for about 16 years. Um, then the pandemic happened, and um my husband and I were living like in the Hudson Valley, uh just kind of like isolated like everybody else was. But it um at that time, what we were really missing in our lives was um I was I was working on projects all over the country, and at that time I was working at Biarca Engels Group. So I was working on projects all over the world, really exciting, amazing projects. Um, but what happened is I grew further and further in my career and became sort of like higher and higher, you know, in terms of my position, I got further and further away from people and also design. Like I wasn't drawing anymore, you know, and the communities I was working with, I couldn't, I couldn't talk to the people that frequently. Um, you know, I just it and I didn't know who they were. It wasn't, I wanted to just work in my own town, you know. I really wanted to say, to know the people, um, and to also sink my teeth into a site and um watch a transformation happen like in, you know, in real detail, sort of slow down the whole design process, you know. You know, take it from like, oh, you've got four months, to what would happen if I had, you know, 10 years on one place. Um so just I we my husband and I decided to move to Tucson, and we didn't really know what we were gonna do, but my family was was here. And um eight months later, this job came up, and it was like it was just like it was just like it was mentally.
SPEAKER_01Did they did they did did you knew somebody from the board that offered the job? Or like did they somebody's like, oh, she came to town? It was like, oh, let's take a mental.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was it was difficult. Um, you know, I've never run a pro nonprofit. Um, and uh I've worked with nonprofits and I've worked on really complicated projects. I've worked on very high stakes, high dollar projects, as along with running organizations that had very large budgets. But running a nonprofit, I had zero experience in. So um what I and I was, you know, I was aware that there was gonna be candidates that would have a lot of nonprofit management. But more or less what I pitched was, you know, I can see I've, you know, it this garden is like almost just a like a five-minute walk from my house. So it was easy for me to visit. As a landscape architect, I was able to see the condition of the of the of the horticultural collection. I could see the way that the the place has evolved over time and how you know there wasn't a big a nice sense of arrival. It was confusing to get around. Um you things were kind of decaying, you know, buildings needed to be repaired. There would, there was, there was just a long list of physical opportunities, but then I also saw that and understood that their um their audience was very homogeneous, as a lot of botanic gardens are, you know, older, um, wealthier folks um who were actually the bedrock of support for um botanic gardens. But at the same time, I thought, wow, the programs that are happening here are need some diversifying. You know, we need to bring in some new programs to bring in new audiences, um, so that it was meeting its mission goals, which was to really try to be a public, you know, to be a community space for Tucson's.
SPEAKER_01And if you're only, you know, yeah, Larizona is a diverse, it's a diverse state.
SPEAKER_03It's very diverse, yeah. So if you're if you're you're not meeting that aspect, um, so I just simply showed some projects I did and some transformations that we did, some of the botanic garden work that I worked on. And I said, look, you know, if you want a nonprofit manager, I get it, but it's not me. But if you want somebody who's going to transform the gardens and the experience here and bring in new audiences, I'm your person. So I made a very binary choice.
SPEAKER_01And you know, you know, it it reminds me of um, I remember we were working with uh consultants, and you know a consultant would come in and just tell you about themselves and stuff like that. Um, but I remember this this consultant just uh probably wasn't the same, but he just came and like this, like he asked me a bunch of questions, then destroyed my operation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I mean it it where I was where where the organization is, is it is you know, it was it was somebody's home for a long time, you know, and and it grew up very piecemeal, which was which is charming and and really really important. But of course, m the national work I'd done with other botanic gardens, I just knew that there was so much opportunity to, you know, not to really retain the the aspects that are charming and and and so beloved, um, but also modernize it, you know, so that it didn't what's that phrase? Like, you know, change is always happening. You're either in charge of it or it happens to you, you know. And so I was just like, let's be in charge of the change, you know, because because we should be.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. You you named the the three-year strategic plan, like returning to to our roots. And so what what did that what did you mean by that? Because it was also a lot of changes. It was it was it's super interesting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, our our strategic plan uh was uh was the last uh you know, long overdue. The the previous one was about 10 years prior. And um I think that what what I did when I first came here was really try to find as read as much as I could about Dick and Gene Wilson, who were the the folks who founded this place. And they were hardcore environmentalists. I mean, they probably wouldn't have labeled themselves that, but they were they were they were a part of that movement in the you know 70s. You know, and they what they did was they gave all their private land, instead of doing what everybody does is just give it to their kids, they donated it to us along with some money to start the organization. So they were they were real champions of the Sonoran Desert preservation. They were also um very much into showcasing and celebrating Southern Arizona arts. Um, but the last piece the last piece that I thought was fascinating was that they were always inviting people into this land, even before it opened as Tahona Chule. Um they had a bookstore and they would let people um look you know check out books and just take them into the desert and they were making these trails, and so they were always inviting people into their private land. Like imagine, like people put up walls and barriers and they don't want people on their land. Um course it was a different time, but anyway. So to me, the nexus of their environmental um, their environmental attitude, um their the the showcasing of cultural arts and the invitation to let everyone in, everyone in to enjoy this space and be here was where was what I meant by returning to our roots. And I think some of what happened, and it's it's just what normally happens is you know, you things just kind of become regular and routine and and we wanted to kind of shake it up a little. Um and also put our put put more clarity around those expectations. So what does it mean to be an environmental champion? Well, turns out our our we had really bad irrigation systems here. We were wasting a lot of water, you know. So one of the first things we did was this whole comprehensive water uh conservation assessment and plan so that we are really being wise stewards, you know, of uh of of water and walking the walk. We became dark skies compliant, you know, all of our lighting was just, you know, we're we're part of a dark skies area, but we weren't we didn't have like fixtures and we weren't doing lighting strategies. We're it was compliant. Like these things were like, how can we be saying that we're environmental champions, but we're not? So picking these things off really quickly was important. Um and then of course, like bringing people in has been a big focus as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's that's a good segue because um and I just want to tell the audience um uh how I got to chance to interview Jamie. I I we we were doing business with another botanical garden, like a neighbor botanical garden. And um and and Jamie's team has been like looking around for for for systems, for museum management systems and control institutional management systems, and which is okay, we're gonna decide we're doing we're gonna go visit. And um one is the place is amazing. Um and and you could have seen me like oh nodding when you were talking about the art because then when you go to the shops, like there's like three different shops in different areas, and so there's a lot of um like local art that is going on there. There is um a huge mural which is breathtaking, right? Um and and so it's definitely such a wonderful place to just walk, I guess to to basically it was it was one of the highlights of our trip. Um and and and what something that called our attention so as we were talking with with James Team. Um it was interesting to see when we were talking earlier about like the demographics, the transformation of the demographics, and and and the spike that you had in your visitation because you went from 50,000 visitors to 92,000 visitors the next the following year, just like doubling that. Um and then just like tripling the the children, so you went from a senior audience to now like a very mixed because obviously when children come along, they come with families and they come up with other with other aspects. So how did you how did you manage all these things when you so you were talking about it's like oh you know, which is like yeah, very senior population, uh affluent and stuff like that, but but Tucson and Arizona it's it's a it's it's a diverse population, both demographic, both in economic uh places. Um so how did how did now this this started?
SPEAKER_03Um well I always made it clear, and it's really important to note that we never wanted to um uh take anything away from our current loyal uh group, you know, so like nothing should be you know subtraction, it's all addition. Um and so we always kept the programming that um that uh made our loyal audience come. Um but the I started in February and so summer was coming and I think this was the big this was the big first move that I made, which was um you know it's hot in summer in the Tucson in Tucson, right? And I grew up in Phoenix, so I remember summers growing up. You stayed inside all day and then you went out at night. That was the only time you could play, really. Um and so I said, Well, why don't we try some summer programs that are in the evenings because we the the organization also hardly ever did evening programs. We were eight to five every day of the year, you know, no seasonal changes. So I said, let's let's try this out, let's experiment, let's do a um, let's hire some bands, let's get some DJs, get the our restaurant on site to have some, you know, grill some uh Sonoran dogs or tacos, get some uh, you know, refreshments, um, and let's uh see if people come and hang out. And we called it chillin' at the chule.
SPEAKER_01Um so And it was like a little pie note, like just like an experiment.
SPEAKER_03It's a it was an experiment, um, but we experimented for the whole summer. Uh so it was all summer, it was like you know, 12 weeks, I think that first year, every Friday and Saturday night. Um and uh we also on Saturdays ha asked the Children's Museum of Tucson to come and do children's programming. So um at night. Uh-huh. Yeah. So we we opened it, it was from six to nine, and it was insanely popular. We had over almost 12,000 people come, you know, over 12 weeks. So we had nights that were pushing, you know, four five hundred people. Um, and we're talking about. Oh my God, everybody was we were everybody was so nervous because nobody had ever done done anything like this. And you know, our marketing person at that time, she was like, nobody's gonna come, it's too hot. And I was like, I know they'll come because I grew up in Phoenix and this is what we did. You know, we went out at night, and what else is there to do at night? And you know, you're you're you're sort of in cabin fever in the summer here, but in reverse. So you're locked inside all day, and you know, we had a we have a beautiful garden, and one of the things we we wanted to tell people is like because of our trees, it's actually cooler here, it's 10 degrees cooler. So get out and come together.
SPEAKER_01Um the trees, the trees, the trees, some of the trees were already there because I know you planted more, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're planting a lot of trees.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, just just for people who've never been to Arizona, because I I I had the opportunity to to spend like a year there, um back uh 2007. And it was super interesting because you when it's in the summer, you go and it's so hot, you don't actually sweat because like it's evaporating. It's like because I got like I was cooking from Miami.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01You go into the summer, you go from your apartment to the car and you're already sweating. And and it's like you actually don't feel the hot, but if you're out there, you get it should get burned if you if you if you're not careful. And it's like and the pools will like go super down, like it will evaporate to like the half, like in in in a morning. So so so that is that is actually very interesting. And yeah, like so at night, uh is yes, where you go out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but if it's 95 degrees here, in if you're in the shade, it actually feels awesome. Yeah, like you, you know, you adapt, you adjust, but you know, I think it's more like even when it was 105 at night, people came. And it's a testament to the resiliency and toughness of Tucson's, but also that people really want to be, they want to enjoy life and they wanna be in a place where they can relax and be with friends and and all of those great um community aspects that are you know just a part of being a human, be having a great life as a human. Um so it was an I would say like we we overstaffed it in the beginning. Like we were, we were, we probably had like six employees every night. Um, and then and then we relaxed and we realized just there's really nothing to do. We just let people walk around and enjoy the food and empty the trash at night.
SPEAKER_01So it was so the first night, like it was at a surprise how many people came, like the first, the first few nights?
SPEAKER_03Uh the first few nights was was pretty light. It was, you know, a few hundred people, but we we were blown away. We were so happy. Um we thought I we thought that was it, but then it became um it became a thing, you know, and I think the numbers have obviously they dip a little when it's hot, but the numbers have been very consistent and um it's still free. Um it's our gift to to to Sonas, you know, it's really like you deserve this. You know, it's we have a lot of snowbirds who go back to wherever they're from, but these are the hardcores. And you know, and you like I said, like we what what was amazing was the diversity, um, as you pointed out. It was almost like we still we had our we had a lot of um regulars, you know, uh some of our seniors and everything. They they came out for sure, but we also had teenagers and a lot of little kids and a lot of different, you know, ethnicities and and folks, you know. I had one person come up to me. Um she just came up to me. I had my name tag on, she came up to me and she just looked at me in the eyes and she said, Thank you for doing this for us. And she was alone, she meant us as everybody that was there, you know. I was like, it's my pleasure.
SPEAKER_01Incredible. So um, and you know, and that is um the the the the whole point of like just experimenting and seeing these surprises, and that's I mean, that is so key in everything, right? Like in every operation, whether it's uh cultural or non-profit or just a business, like just doing these little experiments that just drive drive incredible results.
SPEAKER_03Um I think experiments, and I would just say like we had to do something that also was like putting our name out there. I mean, we we were off the map for all those people that were coming, they didn't know what Tahona School was. You know, they didn't have they they might have heard of it, but most people in those demographics or those areas, like we hadn't been doing anything for them, so there's no reason to know us. So it was really important in those first years with all these experiments that we were making uh impression on them that helped, you know, and the mural is another example of that, you know. It's um I don't know if we'll talk about it later, but it's another one of those things which is like please see yourself here, you know, you are welcome here. It has to be intentional, you know, you have to make it clear. We want you here, and we're gonna do things to you for you to make you feel welcome.
SPEAKER_01And Jamie, so you you said, you know, the beginning of our interviews like, oh, you know, we started as as you know, I came here from this kind of designer perspective, but not the nonprofit part of things. How is that financial roller coaster?
SPEAKER_03It's still happening. Um I mean one of the things that um is different, obviously different about um having a nonprofit is the amount of um work you have with donors on on their private, you know, kind of contributions, um which um is is I guess in a certain way a bit unfamiliar because I always had clients, you know.
SPEAKER_02I you had your budget too.
SPEAKER_03I had to listen to my clients and make them happy um and try to get fees from them, you know, um, and try to have them understand like what it takes to do the work we have to do. So uh, but now in it's of course trying to explain what why we're doing the things we're doing and the meaning and impact that we're having. So the pitch is just different. The things that we've been doing is we've been, as you mentioned, we've been doing a a lot of work here, um, both in terms of programs, but also just trying to physical improvements to the gardens. So um I think I love the phrase, the proof is in the pudding. Um, because I I I want to, one of the things that I like really want to have happen is for people to visually see the impact that they're having on our organization. A lot of times people when they're making pitches for nonprofits, it's for the operations. And I understand that, but I'm also like, we want to build things and we wanna we want to bring programming that's very dynamic. So um a lot of our work with with our donors has been around some of the physical improvements. Um, but the other thing that I think is helpful for my background for Tono Chul is is in earned revenue. So um that um that may not be uh everybody's expertise, but I I've worked with, you know, I've had a lot of private development work, and I really understand from my background working with parks, um uh knowing that earned revenue um is basically how cities and institutions support parks maintenance and programming. So it's been a trend for about 20 years that a lot of um any large park project now has to look at where is there a restaurant? How do we um how do we have earned revenue in this park?
SPEAKER_01Like weddings and exactly things that are going to bring some money for the uh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Right. I mean, there are no the world of like grants um and government support is no longer, you know. Um so we're 100% reliant on our donors and earned revenue. Um and so what we've been what we've been working on, and you saw our shops and but what we've been working on is some of the long-term work now um with our master plan on how to um how to um create more earned revenue opportunities. Um and you know, all that's in the in the in the hope that in the vision that um our earned revenue can more can be more sustainable for our daily operations and programming, and our contributions can focus more on the mission work. So, but it it's it it took a while to get my head around it.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's and and it I think it's um you know it's interesting because the the more sometimes we talk about fundraising, you know, we have these encounters between kind of private practices and the nonprofit practices, right? Uh which sometimes I don't know, sometimes at least to me they don't make any sense.
SPEAKER_03Like it's like it's a tax status, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and for some people it's like, oh, you know, it's like oh we have this great fundraising, but this person, but you know, this person perhaps needs commission. And it's like, no, we don't make commissions because we're a non-profit. It's like but this person can bring a lot of do a lot of good for the organization, like why this person could not get paid. It's like, well, it's because people will say that like but it will bring more talent and it will bring more things, and so there are all these things that are um but sometimes you know coming from from the private perspective is just kind of crazy. Because it's like, you know, to me it's like, oh, the the the fundraisers are the salespeople of the of the organization in a certain way, right? Um so it's like getting to that commission fight is like okay, like in the private world, like you can have sales guys like you're getting no commission, like what? So it is so it is interesting. What what was one of those things that surprise you that you're like, hmm, this is interesting, like these practices, okay.
SPEAKER_03You mean with regard to the managing, yeah, like that you thought it's like, oh you know, I didn't expect these things. Okay, okay, I've got it, I've got it. You know, and this is no shade on my team, but I I um I am a designer, so I think like in a certain way, you know, I've been trained my whole life, and everybody I talk to is thinks the exact same way. So we have, you know, the roles are very clear in a design firm, the process is very clear, you know, of each stage of design. And when I came here, um I just of course now I'm working with a bunch of people that don't have that same training. So I had to um adjust, I had to almost like learn a new language and also um have people understand my language and how I think and how I operate. So the operations part um has been a real evolution. Um really simply is like when I started, there were a lot of silos, right? Retail did retail, arts did art, engagement did engagement. But there wasn't this like um thought of like, well, what's the guest experience as all those come together? And how do we grow and enhance that and and modify that and tweak that collaboratively, you know, as one space? Because from the guest point of view, they're not they're not like, oh, this is the retail, oh, this is the art, this is the engagement. They're experiencing it as one thing. So that was really um, you know, uh in trying to make these, and and an example of like doing chilling at the tool, we would say, retail, what are you doing? You know, engagement, what are you doing? Art, what are you doing? And because they in their mind would have thought of that as a public program, you know, and it's like, nope, we're all doing something on this. So, um, but it really, I think got everybody energized. It was probably confusing at first, but really energized and excited to to to collaborate and to see the benefit of that collaboration with how happy guests were and the number of people that were coming and you know, the you know, improved, you know, improved earned revenue. It's like, look what you did, this is awesome. Like it's because you did it collaboratively. But again, I think I still get I still stumble over the language and the processes. Um and um I I mean they've had a lot of patience with me.
SPEAKER_01So how's how's the relationship with the board?
SPEAKER_03I have a great, I have a great board. Um again, they had to um uh I think that they're the previous executive director, she had, you know, she was amazing and she also had a lot of success, but she worked with the board very differently than I did. I I was like, hey, let's collaborate, let's let's um I didn't want to report out. Um I I wanted them to be um co-creating the vision, the strategic plan, and now the master plan, so that they were, which is really what the board should be doing. I I recognized the role of the board from my previous work, and I basically was like, I want you to work, you know, with me really, you know, it's gonna be a lot of work. You all right with that? And um they were excited about the vision, and they have definitely they are very hardworking board and they're energized and excited, and um, it's a good checks and balances, too. Yeah, as you might guess, sometimes I get a little over excited about things, and they encourage me to slow down.
SPEAKER_01Um, and you know, occasionally which is not happening for what I saw. Um, so so it is it is very interesting because yeah, sometimes um I I can tell you in the private world there there's there there are boards that are like, oh yeah, we'll see each other like next quarter. I was like, no, no, no, man. It's like it's like I'll talk to you next week.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's like, okay, how are we? And and you talk, they're pretty much kind of like just another colleague in the work environment, like a good board relationship. Can we go?
SPEAKER_03They are great. And we have now um before I say we've diversified our board as well. So now we have, I mean, remarkably, there was um maybe just one or two board members that were had jobs. Now we have uh five or uh five board members that have full-time jobs, so we have to work with them and their workload. And we have uh a uh uh tribal member, a member of the Pasquayaki tribe. We have um two Hispanic uh board members, so we're we we've we've improved our demographics. Our our age limit has gone down, uh you know, by our average age is down a little lower because we want folks that are representing all the voices of Tucson.
SPEAKER_01How did I sorry to ask you is that's that is so interesting. Like how did that board change so radically?
SPEAKER_03Um well I had the first board chair, she was uh she was um an artist. And um it when I joined, she was also it was her first day as a board chair. So we we were just in it together, kind of like learning about the organization and our roles at the same time. And she's an artist, so she's she's very creative and I'm very creative, and she just encouraged this creative process to unfold um in as opposed to you know an analytical process or a um rigid process. So um she just let me kind of float and learn and and have a kind of open time, uh a little untethered with hardcore, you know, you know, I want four percent increase of this, and then you know, it was just a a good a good onboarding in that way. Um and then um we also were doing tons of outreach to recruit new board members and having a process that just we just flat out told people like right out front, like this is what our expectations are, and we we want you to be a part of this unbelievable transformation, but you know, we we do have expectations, and so bit by bit, um we've brought the existing board members along um and also recruited new board members um bit by bit. And um so I I would say that that it was a an unbelievable gift that the first board chair was kind of um I guess in the learning the learning process with you. Yeah, and very inspiring person. Um you know, imagine here's this. I I don't know if I would behave as um with so much trust. And that trust was on, you know, they hired me and they wanted me to do these things, but like it took a lot of courage for them to just let me try these things out.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, absolutely. You know what's cool that you mentioned is that you know, sometimes sometimes I think that we we we do forget that just running whatever we're running, it's also a creative process. And it's also about imagination and trial and error and things that work and things that don't work. Um and so that is it's it's it's it's very beautiful to hear from from in in the context of the creation and the and the renovation of of a museum or a park. Um absolutely.
SPEAKER_03I know it's it's it's I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just want to really emphasize that. Like, because of my career, I've been able to take sketches and see things built. So there's a lack that I don't really have fear in that way. Like, I I know that there's gonna be changes during the design process and the construction process, and even after you get it built, you have things that you didn't you didn't know would happen because people weren't, you can't imagine how people are gonna use space. So, like I don't have fear around trying new things at all. I think everything is an experiment and you learn from it and you evolve and you evolve and evolve. And I mean, I, you know, of course you have to be cautious around money and you know, bur over, you know, kind of burnout of your team, but like um you, you know, it's it's an incredible. It's I would encourage anybody who wants to run a botanic garden is to become a landscape architect.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So but you know what it was I was interesting. I was um I'm actually reading something about it. Um but it's like people need two things to get whatever they want done. And one is confidence in themselves in that they can do um whatever they whatever they do. And actually, you know, this is something that I'm trying to change my managerial style. Uh, because it's as a head of organization, sometimes you know, you it seems like the the brain cannot process at the same time like the fire fighting and the empathy type of type of things. Like you cannot do both of things, like it's like or I'm gonna f or I'm gonna put out this fire, or I'm just going to be empathetic, but I cannot do both. And the brain, it's just like the brain cannot do, like you can can't do both. It's like trying to drive with both feet, right? And um but but I'm trying to change my manager's sound saying it's like hey, every time that I talk to somebody, uh I need to make sure that you know that you can do this, that I trust you that you can do this, that you I need to give you the confidence. Because I didn't do that somewhere like in the past, but if you do that so so it so it is Very interesting, um, what you said is because I can I can see it that this the confidence that you have in it's like I'm gonna try this, and I give a fuck if it doesn't work. Sometimes it will fail, and that's okay, it's part of the process, and then I learned something, and then I did it. Um, so having that that part, um you know, about the confidence and the discipline, right?
SPEAKER_03That's the other part that that you need to oh you gotta have you have to have, yeah, because confidence without discipline is is is uh arrogance or it's reckless. So um we you know, I I think it it might it's really good advice that you're giving me about how I mean I I I think I I guess I seem I I appear confident and I am pretty confident, but it's you know it's only because of the work that I've done. But I guess you know, I think you bring a great point, which is like um I I remember, you know, 10-15 years ago when when I thought everything I was doing was like uh not good enough. So um I'm gonna do that more. I'm gonna really try to support the team and making them feel like they've got it too. Yeah, by the way, it's funny because I almost never doubt that they have it.
SPEAKER_01I'm not thinking, oh, you're yeah, I'm but but it is it is also something that is because it it is kind of painful that the you know when they sit the back, it's like hmm, I didn't give this person the confidence. And sometimes when I you hear other leaders and you're like, Yeah, I have this person who trusted me to do this, and now because of that person I'm here, I'm like, oh, I need to do that later. So sometimes like you you you you I personally failed sometimes at that. Um what's what's your definition of a successful botanical garden?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, there's a lot of diversity in botanic gardens, right? I mean, in terms of what their mission is and what their focus is and um their size and their location. I mean, some are very rural, some are very urban, some are tiny. Um and for us, we have um a really uh I think just a sweet spot um where we are 49 acres in size. So we're pretty I would say I guess that's called mid-size. Um but what but 49 acres is nice because it's a it's a it's um you can walk around the whole garden, you know, in a couple hours. We're also really central, we're not in downtown Tucson, but we're in central metropolitan area of Tucson. So we have a lot of access for people to reach us. Um and we also have um an array of uh amenities for our guests. So as you already mentioned, we have a museum, we have a restaurant, we have great retail, we have these, you know, collection gardens, we have these, we have programs with music, and you know, it's like we have a children's museum. So we have we have such a diversity of of offerings that I've I kind of envision Tohono Chul being like um Tucson's great third place, you know, Tucson's I want to I want to say Central Park, but that's almost like, you know, a lot of people don't know what I'm talking about when I say central park because they just think of a big park. But what I mean is like what a democratic place is, you know, like a place where you can come and you know, I lived in New York, so I know what Central Park was for me, which you just like once you park, once you step into that garden, into that park, the city's behind you. You're you are in a leisure, leisure relaxing zone, you know. So, like this vision of having people come and leave their cares behind and just be in a beautiful garden where you can you can be with friends and family, you can drink a glass of wine or have a nice delicious bite to eat.
SPEAKER_00Which you can do in Central Park.
SPEAKER_03I know. You know, and this gets back to the Wilsons because this was literally what Gene Wilson said. She's like, I would like people to come stay for a few hours, you know, and maybe learn something. It was the most humble and and uh it wasn't like too heady or intellectual, it was just about enjoyment, enjoyment, enjoying life, enjoying the pleasures of life. And you know, there aren't honestly, there are just not that many places to do it anymore, you know, without paying a huge price. Um so much of our worlds are about technology or entertainment, you know. If you have a kid, you take them to these places and strip malls where they get to jump on bouncy castles, you know, but like when do they get to just run around and be free? You know, you you've got to go to ballet, you've got to go to soccer, you've got to do all this. But when can kids be free? So, like, we want to be that place for kids, but for all ages.
SPEAKER_01Jamie, I went to there's a couple of things that um one of your team members told me this story that was very cool and really moving about one of the things that you did is so there was this person in a wheelchair that um you know he would have like always like the same route, and then you open like another route, and he's like and he was so excited because he could see other parts of the park now because of the accessibility part of things. It's one of those those stories that it was it was very moving, it was very cool uh to to to have that that perspective from from from a from a person with with limited access, which is again like really, really cool.
SPEAKER_03Um the other part accessibility is is a is a big deal, you know, with 49 acres, only about five and a half acres is really accessible to our to people with you know mobilities or even like you know, baby strollers and um you know it's really important that our garden is is more open and inviting.
SPEAKER_01So Jamie, what's your largest favorite botanical garden and your smallest and the smallest favorite botanical garden?
SPEAKER_03Um well I I worked for many years with Lawnwood Gardens um in southeastern Pennsylvania. Um it is a thousand-acre botanic garden, it's large, it's the largest. Um, and I when I was at West State, we did the master plan for it, and it was the first ever master plan. And their CEO, Paul Redmond, was is so brilliant. He's still there. He's um he he did he he was really my guy. He was really he's really like the person I think about when I think about Tahona Chuel's future because he did so much to um bring the historic structures back to their glory, to bring more um more um opportunities for for different people to come. I mean, the visitation went like that, and the revenue went like that, and uh the experience and the quality went like that under his uh under his domain. Um and and it's also a uh garden that was started by a person, you know, and that's where Tona Chul is also they're started by a couple. So it's like a personal vision of uh a person who had a big vision, you know, 150 years ago or whatever. Um so I love Longwood Gardens. Um for a small garden, it's it's uh gotta be the uh Ethnobotanic Garden in Oaxaca.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um that is um uh uh right in the center of town of Oaxaca, and it's a former um gosh, I might get this wrong, but it's like a former um some institution, you know, like a like a like a some kind of um like a building. Yeah, like there's some old, old, old buildings that were like maybe like uh military use. But over time, um they have grown that garden into being so vivid and so iconic and just of the place. There's no place on the planet that could be than Oaxaca. And the only thing they do there is show off the plants. So it's the opposite of Longwood. There isn't a restaurant, there's no there's I don't even remember a gift shop. So it's it's so plant focused, and it's icon, every place is iconic and it's all about plants. And the other thing that I love about it is there's not one single sign, there's no signs in it. You can only either just walk through it and feel it, or you can have a docent tour, and then they'll tell you what you should know about it. So I love it, I loved it so much. They're really different.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, now you now we know. We know you gave me two places to visit. Um, so I think that you answered the question about you know, if there was another leader that we should talk to about botanical gardens, I guess is the park in Pennsylvania.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, you should. He's he's I don't know, I think of him as like he's he's just a he's that's just a yeah, mentor for a lot of us. And um, the botanic garden world is also just a very friendly, welcoming group. Um uh there's no competition, if you will, um, which is really nice. People give us they've mentored me a lot, the whole community has. So I could help you with a few other names.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing, Jamie. It has been a pleasure. It has been a pleasure. This was a super great conversation. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people will will get a lot of these of don't worry, believe in yourself, go and try things, do it, see what sticks. It's okay, you will fail sometimes. It's okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, have high expectations, and um, you know, you can uh if you get 75% of what you're trying for, that's that's huge success, right? Yeah, well thank you.
SPEAKER_01Whatever brings it more, right? But whatever whatever helps them get better, the it's it works.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for the opportunity. It's fun to reflect back and and think about how my career has led to this great.
SPEAKER_01It's crazy, and and it's and it's amazing. And your team, they they were like, oh man, this woman goes so fast.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it's good, it's good. Uh you know, uh an institution goes as fast as it leaders, as it leaders, you know. If this leader goes low, then this institution goes low. Same as the business.
SPEAKER_03I think that once everybody saw that I wasn't that that it was really about the mission for me and the Wilsons, a lot of there was a lot of enthusiasm for some of the things we're doing. So yeah, I appreciate my colleagues so much.
SPEAKER_01They they certainly they love working for you. That that that you could tell, you could just tell by the by the way they expressed about the changes and the the excitement about the project of like, and now we're gonna do this, and the next year, and here's what we're doing here, and look at the mural. And it was it was it was a blast. It was a blast, Jamie.
SPEAKER_02That's great to hear.
SPEAKER_01Well, it was very refreshing, it was very inspiring. So, so that's the testament for for your work and your team's work. Thank you. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03Look forward to our future together.
SPEAKER_01All right, bye. Bye. So thanks for listening, watching, and spending some time. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. And if you'd like to catch more episodes of the Cultural Democrats the Museum Leadership Lab, please share and subscribe to the podcast. And you can listen to it on Apple Podcasts, you can listen to it on Spotify, or we'll watch the full episode of YouTube. Yeah, I'm really good. And then also to follow over on LinkedIn and Facebook, MX, and whatever other social media thing we're gonna put this down. And we will be sharing more content and inviting other leaders from the museum and cultural industry. We definitely want more culture and more museums everywhere. So until then, please take care of uh my friend, and then we'll we'll see you soon. Bye bye.
